tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724832200411147167.post3057566043675042310..comments2023-10-19T02:24:24.166-07:00Comments on The Chasm: Eagleton's Death of UniversitiesCarbondale Chasmitehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13594688764570047726noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724832200411147167.post-44305039051153182002011-01-04T13:24:50.075-08:002011-01-04T13:24:50.075-08:00Agree with the value of training in logic and conc...Agree with the value of training in logic and conceptual systems. I earned an MA in philosophy. I'm a programmer currently. When I started this field, the training in symbolic logic made learning programming very easy. Not to mention the Aristotlean concepts of classes and objects, and their relation to each other one finds in object-oriented programming. And then there are the benefits of rigorous training in rational thinking for everyday life. <br />I don't feel let down by my degree.<br />I do think, however, that the cost of attending some colleges in the last decade has reduced the value of a degree in many fields - whether it is humanities, sciences, or business.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724832200411147167.post-28274214682607910712011-01-01T23:50:24.592-08:002011-01-01T23:50:24.592-08:00"First, the idiom of letting someone down sug..."First, the idiom of letting someone down suggests you failed to fulfill someone's expectations of yourself. In this way, you wrongly personify the degree as something to be let down, and as such, you are speaking rather confusingly about degrees."<br /><br />I didn't mean the degree is let down, but that the degree let the degree holder down. Certainly, a person with a degree can feel like the degree let them down. I don't see what's confusing about that. I'm not saying that their degree owed them something and wasn't able to pay them for the time they took to achieve it, but merely reporting that people feel this way. <br /><br />I have a high enough GPA to get into most graduate programs someone with a phil. degree is eligible for. But of course I'm in the minority. Most of my friends who are about to finish or near finishing the same degree have a much lower average. I can't feel too bad for them b/c they didn't work as hard as I did in most cases, and they deserve the consequences, but I can't help but understand their new found bitterness towards their (now nearly useless) degrees. <br /><br />"Continental philosophy never provides an alternative to the framework of larger analytic schools of thought, it sought to show how problematic those analytic frameworks are initially."<br /><br />What's the use of doing that exactly? Doesn't that assume a lot of people care about analytic philosophy in the first place (and thus will care that it's not as great as they thought it was)? This is false. If CP doesn't provide a positive alternative, than we have a purely negative school of thought which I don't think Nietzsche would endorse were he around today. I don't have the book with me (I lent it to a friend) but I believe it is in "Twilight of the Idols" that Nietzsche writes that there is no justification to knocking something down a theory, school of thought (or anything else) unless you have something better to take its place. <br /><br />CP, it seems to me has failed in the positive part. And of course, I don't care about their critic of analytic philosophy, b/c I never thought much of it in the first place.Canadian Pragmatisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05462246161030851628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724832200411147167.post-77047300253200154342011-01-01T19:36:27.042-08:002011-01-01T19:36:27.042-08:00Well, let's keep with the analytic motif for j...Well, let's keep with the analytic motif for just a bit: <br /><br />You say getting a job in some other field other than one's degree means "their degrees let them down." First, the idiom of letting someone down suggests you failed to fulfill someone's expectations of yourself. In this way, you wrongly personify the degree as something to be let down, and as such, you are speaking rather confusingly about degrees. <br /><br />Recall that my defense of the humanities revolves around the self-empowerment and experiencing things about human life outside careers. That is just one area of human life. Guilt, death, redemption, these are all things in which wisdom and philosophers can speak about and talk about and if you are trained solely in analytic philosophy, then you'll be blind to the conversations of these themes in Continental philosophy at large, and be confused about what has been the intention overall for many of these thinkers. Continental philosophy never provides an alternative to the framework of larger analytic schools of thought, it sought to show how problematic those analytic frameworks are initially. That's a different thing than providing an alternative. An honest look at CP reveals how Nietzsche's insight start with the struggles of real life is picked in many of the authors in CP. So when you ask about who really cares about phenomenology and existentialism, just look at the range of departments that I may be employed in at the end with sufficient attention to interdisciplinary inquiries within CP: comparative literature, English, cultural theory, religious studies, art history. Of course, you can always study philosophy in English, with hair-splitting distinctions. How useful is that?Carbondale Chasmitehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13594688764570047726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724832200411147167.post-84916204014223410002011-01-01T15:22:38.542-08:002011-01-01T15:22:38.542-08:00[I'm sorry, this may be a repeat. In which ca...[I'm sorry, this may be a repeat. In which cases please disregard it. It wasn't clear to me whether the first time this comment went through]<br /><br />I'm not worried about getting a job. There are a lot of graduate programs I've applied to including MPAs, Toronto's History and Philosophy of Education MA and plain Jane philosophy grad programs. Aside from that I happen to have a father who builds houses, so I could always just do that. <br /><br />That's not really the point though. I doubt your french lit. friends wanted to work in finance or in any other fairly random industry (random, considered after a french literature degree). I mean, that they're working is disparate fields (as far from their degree as possible) is not a testament to the versatility of a philosophy or french lit. degree. It says something about the versatility and triumph of the human spirit, but you have to conclude in those cases, their degrees let them down. They have good jobs, sure, but I mean, if I end up in finance, I will regret the philosophy degree; and I don't see a clear reason why they wouldn't regret their degrees. <br /><br />Obviously my philosophy degree has been analytic (as if I had a choice). However, I've read almost all of Nietzsche's books, and Solomon's, Nehamas', Danto's and Leiter's take on him. So, I get your point about individual responsibility, but it's not clear to me in the end whether Nietzsche himself would encourage people to study a subject so disengaged from the struggles of real life - e.g. philosophy. <br /><br />But I mean, I was rescued from my self-incurred tutelage and empowered by about the end of first year. After that I had just done so many philosophy courses, that it wouldn't have made too much sense to change at that point. <br /><br />And I've read the Eagleton piece, since my last comment. He seems to be speaking the truth to me. Humanities are still important, but they're only supplementary for the vast majority of people.<br /><br />Also, you're speaking a truism, that non-philosophers can't be as knowledgeable about philosophy as philosophers, but I almost count this to their credit. Who cares about phenomenology, existentialism, etc. anyways, really?<br /><br />Those on the continental side have not provided a very good alternative to analytic philosophy as far as I can tell. They're only more esoteric in many cases. The only real alternative in pragmatism, but of course the greatest pragmatist of my time ended up teaching comparative literature (Rorty), so what does that say about the future of a useful philosophy?Canadian Pragmatisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05462246161030851628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724832200411147167.post-6345604026884179852011-01-01T15:20:45.450-08:002011-01-01T15:20:45.450-08:00I'm not worried about getting a job. There ar...I'm not worried about getting a job. There are a lot of graduate programs I've applied to including MPAs, Toronto's History and Philosophy of Education MA and plain Jane philosophy grad programs. Aside from that I happen to have a father who builds houses, so I could always just do that. <br /><br />That's not really the point though. I doubt your french lit. friends wanted to work in finance or in any other fairly random industry (random, considered after a french literature degree). I mean, that they're working is disparate fields (as far from their degree as possible) is not a testament to the versatility of a philosophy or french lit. degree. It says something about the versatility and triumph of the human spirit, but you have to conclude in those cases, their degrees let them down. They have good jobs, sure, but I mean, if I end up in finance, I will regret the philosophy degree; and I don't see a clear reason why they wouldn't regret their degrees. <br /><br />Obviously my philosophy degree has been analytic (as if I had a choice). However, I've read almost all of Nietzsche's books, and Solomon's, Nehamas', Danto's and Leiter's take on him. So, I get your point about individual responsibility, but it's not clear to me in the end whether Nietzsche himself would encourage people to study a subject so disengaged from the struggles of real life - e.g. philosophy. <br /><br />But I mean, I was rescued from my self-incurred tutelage and empowered by about the end of first year. After that I had just done so many philosophy courses, that it wouldn't have made too much sense to change at that point. <br /><br />And I've read the Eagleton piece, since my last comment. He seems to be speaking the truth to me. Humanities are still important, but they're only supplementary for the vast majority of people.<br /><br />Also, you're speaking a truism, that non-philosophers can't be as knowledgeable about philosophy as philosophers, but I almost count this to their credit. Who cares about phenomenology, existentialism, etc. anyways, really?<br /><br />Those on the continental side have not provided a very good alternative to analytic philosophy as far as I can tell. They're only more esoteric in many cases. The only real alternative in pragmatism, but of course the greatest pragmatist of my time ended up teaching comparative literature (Rorty), so what does that say about the future of a useful philosophy?Canadian Pragmatisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05462246161030851628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724832200411147167.post-53994110549746551102011-01-01T10:16:19.985-08:002011-01-01T10:16:19.985-08:00Finally, there is no contradiction:
The decision...Finally, there is no contradiction: <br /><br />The decision to go to university at the time of making it was heteronomous. Once there, I act autonomously. There's no equivocation, just different temporal moments of how this process came to be.Carbondale Chasmitehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13594688764570047726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724832200411147167.post-34483342883534827182011-01-01T10:06:44.106-08:002011-01-01T10:06:44.106-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Carbondale Chasmitehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13594688764570047726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724832200411147167.post-70722811851580487732011-01-01T10:05:51.548-08:002011-01-01T10:05:51.548-08:00If you honestly think that because you will get a ...If you honestly think that because you will get a degree there is a job out there waiting for you, then you have another thing coming. When I go on the job market, I have confidence in things I have done to make myself a worthy job candidate over others. It is not simply from acquiring a degree. I know French literature graduates working in the Finance Industry pulling down six figures, and the point is who they are, what they did as individuals to get there. The degree is only one step, but it is not the entire step for undergrads and grads alike. A lot has to come from your own steam. <br />o allay your fears, I have met several BA honours degrees during my time at SFU, and they have all went onto better things. Some have went to get there LLBs, others have worked in non-profits. As a philsoophy major, you're well poised to do something with your life. It might just not be philosophy, but most graduate departments outside philosophy respect philosophy immensely. I just met an anthropologist on my street that worked on Merleau-Ponty in a weirdly appropriated way. <br /><br />Yes, there are philosophy cafes. One can visit many of them in Vancouver, and they consist of the touchy-feely BC types that want to sound smart by reading Nietzsche. Then, someone like me walks in and sits for about an hour and hears how Nietzsche is really misunderstood and I start to grade the level of conversation. On good days, there might be 1 out of 10 people capable of getting a C-. Other times, it is not that philosophical but a dialogue with philosophical highlights. There is no substitute for having conversations with experts. I had this experience in Canada where I had the private ear of one of Gregory Vlastos's students on Socrates. The guidance he offered was spectacular and he was very accomplished. Of course, such a perspective is wanted when one realizes the depth of philosophical inquiry requires expertise in more than just picking those books off the shelf. <br /><br />I can only surmise your dispassionate view of your philosophy degree has been overly analytical. However, I dare not say much after that because I can entirely be wrong. I can only say that had you read Nietzsche, you'd have internalized a measure of stoic stalwartness that would not have manifested in so much whining. It is not the existence of philosophy degrees that breed bad fortune, but the individuals themselves not achieving the intellectual autonomy to listen to what Kant called "counsels of prudence."Carbondale Chasmitehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13594688764570047726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724832200411147167.post-4552787293484879242011-01-01T10:05:44.547-08:002011-01-01T10:05:44.547-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Carbondale Chasmitehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13594688764570047726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724832200411147167.post-29276342010511737132011-01-01T10:04:11.675-08:002011-01-01T10:04:11.675-08:00Well, in order:
1) Logic and critical thinking a...Well, in order: <br /><br />1) Logic and critical thinking are taught in their purest form because a) philosophy invented logic and b) you can apply things like logic to your life as demonstrated in critical thinking classes. No other discipline teaches you the martial art of logic and critical thinking as directly as philosophy. You may be a history major, or political science major. You may be taught history through a neo-marxist filter or study politics through behaviorism. Yet, the critical thinking offered outside philosophy means that some professors have transmitted some theoretical framework that you are to make sense of yourself. This isn't bad, but it's not critical thinking. It's a poor substitute for what you get in philosophy classes. <br /><br />This moves me to the second point. Sure, someone can pick up philosophy books and read them. However, the historical context of reading say any author will come from how implicit assumptions have affected the philosopher your reading. You won't be aware of these historical determinations, not to mention the nuances of translation if you pick up, say, a European philosopher. So, say, you pick up Heidegger and read him. A responsible reading of Heidegger requires at minimum a decent knowledge of Hegel, Aristotle, Aquinas, Kiekegaard and lots of Husserl. That's just for one book. That said, I am not committed to the logical impossibility of someone that doesn't take classes picking up on the nuances of Heidegger's thought as they are affected by previous historical conversations that give rise to a lot of his points in the text. I'm just saying it is very improbable that such a person exists. Finally, there is an element to the classroom that no amount of self-tutoring or online classes can really give you given that philosophy is such a nuanced thing. I think this holds if you are also an analytically-minded philosopher. If someone just picks up, say, Michael Smith's response to Bernard Williams about reasons internalism, the person will be just as lost. <br /><br />If you honestly think that because you will get a degree there is a job out there waiting for you, then you have another thing coming. When I go on the job market, I have confidence in things I have done to make myself a worthy job candidate over others. It is not simply from acquiring a degree. I know French literature graduates working in the Finance Industry pulling down six figures, and the point is who they are, what they did as individuals to get there. The degree is only one step, but it is not the entire step for undergrads and grads alike. A lot has to come from your own steam.Carbondale Chasmitehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13594688764570047726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724832200411147167.post-17805544334462142652011-01-01T03:28:07.885-08:002011-01-01T03:28:07.885-08:00"I went from Art Education to Philosophy. It’..."I went from Art Education to Philosophy. It’s a rather strange switch, I know. However, it just felt right. I did it for my own purposes, which I saw as self-empowerment. I never went to university to think that I’d get a job in my field of study. Instead, I went because in some ways I was expected to go" <br /><br />Could you explain how self-empowerment and going to University because you were expected to go don't contradict each other? Presumably, now that you're empowered, you would go back to your un-empowered self and advise him not to go to University just because he's expected to go.<br /><br />Am I missing something?Canadian Pragmatisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05462246161030851628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1724832200411147167.post-52235507726721103752011-01-01T03:14:27.858-08:002011-01-01T03:14:27.858-08:00Caveat: I haven't read Eagleton's article ...Caveat: I haven't read Eagleton's article yet.<br /><br />"...philosophy taught me to think about questions that have no definitive answers. It fosters skills in critical thinking, logic and the intellectual imagination that only comes from philosophy and by extension other humanities-based disciplines."<br /><br />Aside from the last point about 'intellectual imagination', I think other disciplines require logic and critical thinking. Perhaps I'm wrong; if I am, please excuse my ignorance. <br /><br />Also, presumably, if you want to increase your imaginative capabilities reading great books (philosophy books or otherwise) will do this for you. And since most all of these books are available in the library (or on amazon, if you don't live in a big city with an equally big library). Why take philosophy courses, if you're not taking them to get a job? <br /><br />I think that's the problem student - like me - have. We think that if we get a degree, we have some hope at landing a decent job. This is even more true of a graduate degree. With the job market for people looking to be professors in philosophy, so bare, it really is hard to justify encouraging people to get a philosophy degree.<br /><br />I should say, I'm in my fourth year of a honours degree in philosophy, but I can't help but think that if I could go back I may have considered minoring in philosophy and majoring in something else. <br /><br />After all, it's not like I can't stay in touch with students who I like to talk to or professors I enjoy speaking to. Also, there are philosophy cafes all around now, and if you're looking for high-level conversation, I would suggest you can get it just as easily - for free - at one of these cafes as opposed to for hundreds of dollars an hour from a professor during office hours. <br /><br />I can conscience encouraging younger students to take a few phil. courses before they graduate, but to encourage majoring in it, I'm afraid I cannot conscience.Canadian Pragmatisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05462246161030851628noreply@blogger.com